THE FINAL SCENE: The End of LOST

[Fone Bone 2001]

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

Can you do me one favor and explain to me how it isn't an objective, complete world? Every character (not just those in the church) is observing this reality as an actual existence. Where does it become incomplete or unobjective?

You already know the reasons - you just don't like them.

(a) The passage of time operates far more subjectively than in the "mortal" world. We know that because Locke and Sun were rushed to the hospital at the same time, even though their injuries were nearly a week apart. I established this definitively in the thread "The Island: Underwater" on p.15-16, and if someone wants to see for himself which of us is right, they can consult those pages of that thread.

(b) You can tell that the sideways world is structured specifically to help them all move on. One factor that proves this: If it were simply an alternate reality in which every difference was a result of Jughead's sinking of the island, then there wouldn't be differences that predate Jughead's detonation, but there are: Ben, Roger, and Pierre Chang are alive and off-island in the sideways world, even though they were all on the island when Juliet began pounding on Jughead. If the sideways world operated totally objectively, then those three would be dead and at the bottom of the ocean.

(c) Another factor that proves this: I know you hate the argument about Chang's age as well, but the fact is he does not look 30 years older in the sideways world. This also shows how the sideways world is subjectively structured.

(d) Other factors that show this: the world operates in ways that help them all reunite in ways that would be impossible in a world that functioned like ours. Locke going back to work a day after surgery to repair a shattered back, an obliterated dural sac, is another example of this.

(e) Sun and Jin instantaneously learning English.

(f) Also: David Shephard. I know you vehemently insist against all evidence that he is a real, objectively existing person, but he's not. I doubt there's a single other poster on this entire forum who could even begin to convince himself or herself that David was a real, objectively existing person. "You don't have a son, Jack." But he needed to experience being a father so that he could see that Hugo was right when he insisted that Jack would be a good father in "Lighthouse" (6.05).

(g) Finally, Eloise's conversation with Desmond in the finale ("Are you going to take my son?" she asked fearfully) proves that they are departing that world. If it's a real, objective reality that functions just like ours, then where are they going? In this life, you don't just "disappear" to a higher metaphysical plane.

I know none of these reasons convince you. But I think any other poster reading this will see these points and say, "Oh, yeah, I do see how the sideways world has to be a subjectively structured afterlife, and how there are aspects to it which preclude its being a real, objective reality of its own."

So my reply was more for them. Sorry, mastyrwerk.

If anyone is unconvinced about mastyrwerk's thesis, I highly recommend the second half of the thread, "The Island: Underwater." It sums up our respective arguments with unimpeachable thoroughness, and I am confident in what that thread's conversation seems to point to.

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

Oh, one more thing: where in LOST do they establish a spiritual realm as being real or important?

It was first hinted at through miracles (Locke's paralysis, Rose's cancer) and through the theme that science - i.e. the investigation of natural phenomena on the purely material level - can't answer or explain everything, and it was definitively established through the revelation that individual life after death - the existence of the immortal personal soul that survives death - exists in the world of LOST.

Then the revelation that the flashsideways world is their afterlife inviolably cemented the reality and importance of the spiritual realm on LOST.

In the words of Miles Straume: "That's not Naomi, it's just meat." Also, "When someone dies, their brain stops functioning" - yet we've seen that people live on after their brains stop functioning, even though their bodies are rotting in the ground (or in the ocean, etc.)
Also note Locke's claim to Jack that "they didn't lose your father - they just lost his body."

All of these aspects/lines make it clear that in LOST, the part of the human person that is not matter or energy is real, important, and lives on after death. That makes the spiritual (i.e. non-physical) side of reality real and important on LOST.

The religious imagery throughout the series made it crystal clear as well, especially at the end.

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

I understand that it might be to you, but it has never been established in show to be something tangibly 'real' whereas time travel, conciousness transferance, and the altering of the timeline has been seen as being tangibly 'real'.

It was established as real, for the reasons I stated above.

Originally Posted by Hercules

^ I think this guy is having fun by trying to confuse people with his "the jughead worked and what we saw was an ALT world" B.s. !

I think he's serious, Hercules. He's pulling an Eloise Widmore - he wants them all to enjoy all the nice things they have in the sideways world for many more years, rather than acknowledging that they leave it at the conclusion of "The End" for some kind of interpersonal, spiritual, metaphysical transcendence.

[FrecklesOnAPlane]

Great post, Fone Bone, but I don't think he is open to changing his POV one inch, and its best to let him have is own little private "alt" interpretation of the ending ;-) .

[mastyrwerk]

You are right, Freckles, in that I can't change my point of view without real evidence, and everybody keeps reiterating the same nonsense over and over.

Phone-
a) whose subjective time are you referring to? At no time does anybody relate to another that time is behaving differently. This is your mistaken attention of time. I can't prove it to you in show because it is never addressed. This is subjective evidence in that you made it up, not that it's actually there.

b)I have already proven that everybody was able to successfully get off the Island. This is false evidence on your part.

c) Again, this is subjective. The guy couldn't have gotten plastic surgery? Worn make up? The fact that this is never addressed makes this another subjective argument. You can't prove your point with subjective arguments.

d) Sarah was able to wiggle her toes right and gain full feeling after surgery. Even tho this is unthinkable in the real world, in the 'real' world of LOST, these types of miracles are possible without it being a subjectively made up world.

e) They learned English when they regained their memories of another reality. Why is this even an example?

f) So you're saying that Jack fabricated David to prove a point to Hurley? Or that whatever is subjectively (and you have yet to establish what or who) is subjectively creating this world manifested a son for him so he can feel what it's like to be a dad?

Please. You're making this story way more convoluted than it has to be. Occam's Razor. They establish an objective history for David. They give him objective goals.

You consistently quote what characters say to prove your points, when it has been hammered in over and over through the series that most characters lie, and those that aren't lying don't necessarily have the right answers. If Locke is right that Jack doesn't have a son, then Jack was right that Adam and Eve's clothing was only detriorated forty years.

g) It doesn't prove that they are departing that world. You are leading the argument. She had no idea what was going to happen and she feared what she didn't know. That doesn't prove anything. Again, you are taking what people say as fact, but we know that what people say is generally the farthest thing from.

Again, all your arguments are subjective, which, if you are looking for a subjective ending, should suit you just fine.

Me, I'm looking for an objective ending. Something that has been properly established through the whole series that can be looked back at and understood logically.

Next point- spiritual REALM
Your examples strongly hint at a spiritual side of LOST, but actually prove AGAINST the notion of a REALM that exists outside of the real world.

Miles got psychic impressions of the energy that lingers with the body. That means that the energy doesn't go anywhere. It stays in this world.
Hurley interacted with the conciousness of the spirit energy in the real world. Never did they mention a spirit world apart from the real one.
The whispers were the dead that lingered on the Island to warn others. Again, no spirit world.
The afterlife that the dead go to is actually a real world where there energy doesn't go, their conciousness does. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed in this reality, which means that if the soul is energy, it doesn't leave this reality to go to another. It can't. There is a finite amount of energy and it just changes.
Conciousness, on the other hand can be shifted from one point in time to another without the transference of energy. Desmond is an example of this. He was able to shift his conciousness without exploding. Time and space is realtive, so if you look at two point in time as to realities that are bridged by the shared conciousness, then it makes sense that the LOSTies could have shifted conciousness at their death and still left their spiritual energy behind. This is proof that Miles was still able to read Juliet, even though her conciousness jumped to the vending machine scene.

I'm really sorry you guys are fighting me on this. I appreciate your arguments, tho. It's helping to solidify my points.

[coke]

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

You are right, Freckles, in that I can't change my point of view without real evidence, and everybody keeps reiterating the same nonsense over and over.

Phone-
a) whose subjective time are you referring to? At no time does anybody relate to another that time is behaving differently. This is your mistaken attention of time. I can't prove it to you in show because it is never addressed. This is subjective evidence in that you made it up, not that it's actually there.

b)I have already proven that everybody was able to successfully get off the Island. This is false evidence on your part.

c) Again, this is subjective. The guy couldn't have gotten plastic surgery? Worn make up? The fact that this is never addressed makes this another subjective argument. You can't prove your point with subjective arguments.

d) Sarah was able to wiggle her toes right and gain full feeling after surgery. Even tho this is unthinkable in the real world, in the 'real' world of LOST, these types of miracles are possible without it being a subjectively made up world.

e) They learned English when they regained their memories of another reality. Why is this even an example?

f) So you're saying that Jack fabricated David to prove a point to Hurley? Or that whatever is subjectively (and you have yet to establish what or who) is subjectively creating this world manifested a son for him so he can feel what it's like to be a dad?

Please. You're making this story way more convoluted than it has to be. Occam's Razor. They establish an objective history for David. They give him objective goals.

You consistently quote what characters say to prove your points, when it has been hammered in over and over through the series that most characters lie, and those that aren't lying don't necessarily have the right answers. If Locke is right that Jack doesn't have a son, then Jack was right that Adam and Eve's clothing was only detriorated forty years.

g) It doesn't prove that they are departing that world. You are leading the argument. She had no idea what was going to happen and she feared what she didn't know. That doesn't prove anything. Again, you are taking what people say as fact, but we know that what people say is generally the farthest thing from.

Again, all your arguments are subjective, which, if you are looking for a subjective ending, should suit you just fine.

Me, I'm looking for an objective ending. Something that has been properly established through the whole series that can be looked back at and understood logically.

Next point- spiritual REALM
Your examples strongly hint at a spiritual side of LOST, but actually prove AGAINST the notion of a REALM that exists outside of the real world.

Miles got psychic impressions of the energy that lingers with the body. That means that the energy doesn't go anywhere. It stays in this world.
Hurley interacted with the conciousness of the spirit energy in the real world. Never did they mention a spirit world apart from the real one.
The whispers were the dead that lingered on the Island to warn others. Again, no spirit world.
The afterlife that the dead go to is actually a real world where there energy doesn't go, their conciousness does. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed in this reality, which means that if the soul is energy, it doesn't leave this reality to go to another. It can't. There is a finite amount of energy and it just changes.
Conciousness, on the other hand can be shifted from one point in time to another without the transference of energy. Desmond is an example of this. He was able to shift his conciousness without exploding. Time and space is realtive, so if you look at two point in time as to realities that are bridged by the shared conciousness, then it makes sense that the LOSTies could have shifted conciousness at their death and still left their spiritual energy behind. This is proof that Miles was still able to read Juliet, even though her conciousness jumped to the vending machine scene.

I'm really sorry you guys are fighting me on this. I appreciate your arguments, tho. It's helping to solidify my points.

It is even said in lost that the purgatory was made by them so they could move on together.

[mastyrwerk]

Originally Posted by coke

It is even said in lost that the purgatory was made by them so they could move on together.

It was said that "this place" was made by all of them. This means that Jughead worked and they created an alternate timeline. The word 'purgatory' was never said in regards to this.

[atomicshiv]

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

It was said that "this place" was made by all of them. This means that Jughead worked and they created an alternate timeline. The word 'purgatory' was never said in regards to this.

All of them.. so that includes Boon, Libby, Penny, Desmond, Shannon etc who was dead before they even met Daniel who suggested to activate jughead.. so I don't think that worked if it was created by all of them.

[coke]

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

It was said that "this place" was made by all of them. This means that Jughead worked and they created an alternate timeline. The word 'purgatory' was never said in regards to this.

So they could move on together, and then there is a big light an they move on somewhere, sounds like purgatory.
And All of them, the bomb was blown up by a select few

[Billy BK]

Juliet disproves your theory completely. If she sunk the island and caused this alternate universe, then why is she still alive in it? Why is the past before jughead, different? If that created a separate physical universe, then everything should be the same up until that exact moment and we know that's not true.

[mastyrwerk]

Originally Posted by Billy BK

Juliet disproves your theory completely. If she sunk the island and caused this alternate universe, then why is she still alive in it? Why is the past before jughead, different? If that created a separate physical universe, then everything should be the same up until that exact moment and we know that's not true.

This argument makes absolutely no sense. What do you mean she's still alive. At the moment of detonation, all the time travelling LOSTies jumped back to 2007, including a crushed Juliet.

The past before Jughead is NOT different. They specifically show three things that prove objectively that things are not different. The Statue is the same. Dharma Barracks are on the Island. Ford's parents are dead. Those were all established to have happened prior to the Incident and are indisputable.

This talk of Jack's appendectomy is subjective since we have no concrete date when he had it rupture as a kid.

I have already proven cronologically that Young Ben was with Dharma during the evacuation since Charles Widmore returned him the day before the Incident.

atomicshiv- Everything that happened to them was real and it all mattered. If it wasn't for Shannon's, Boon's and Libby's deaths, Desmond and Penny's influence in the altering of time, Charlie's sacrifice, they wouldn't have been able to get off the Island, travel through time, and subsequently detonating the bomb. They all had a part in it. You're suggesting Juliet's the only one that detonated the bomb, or that only those that travelled through time had a part in it. It's broader than that.

[Billy BK]

Juliet sustained her life ending injuries BEFORE detonating the bomb. Yes, she went to 2008 and died in the original time line. How then, is she perfectly fine in the AU? And how was it possible to detonate the bomb in the first place, since they never went to the island and had the opportunity to travel to the past and do that in the AU? Who detonated jughead in the AU? If anything you could say Jughead SAVED the island in the regular timeline. In the AU it wasn't detonated because of the 815ers never arriving, then the island sank when Dharma hit the pocket of light. What about Dr Chang not losing his arm in the incident? If everything is the same up until the incident in both timelines, then how are both of those events possible? Ben also could not have possibly been shot by Sayid, which led up to his introduction with the others. This also happened before the incident. I'm sure there are a bunch more differences, I just can't remember them at the moment.

[mastyrwerk]

Originally Posted by Billy BK

Juliet sustained her life ending injuries BEFORE detonating the bomb. Yes, she went to 2008 and died in the original time line. How then, is she perfectly fine in the AU? And how was it possible to detonate the bomb in the first place, since they never went to the island and had the opportunity to travel to the past and do that in the AU? Who detonated jughead in the AU? If anything you could say Jughead SAVED the island in the regular timeline. In the AU it wasn't detonated because of the 815ers never arriving, then the island sank when Dharma hit the pocket of light. What about Dr Chang not losing his arm in the incident? If everything is the same up until the incident in both timelines, then how are both of those events possible? Ben also could not have possibly been shot by Sayid, which led up to his introduction with the others. This also happened before the incident. I'm sure there are a bunch more differences, I just can't remember them at the moment.

None of those are differences. Look-
Juliet being perfectly fine in the AU is because this is the Juliet that in 1977 was like, maybe 4 years old. Your concept of temporal mechanics is faulty.

Up to 1977 both realities were one reality. Everything before Jughead going off is the same, only in semantics are things techinically different. Here's what I mean. In the Original timeline, the LOSTies are travellers from the future. In the Alt timeline, the LOSTies are travellers from a possible future.
When Jughead went off, instead of erasing everything that happened in the Original to create the Alt, both timelines manifested as complete realities.
In the AU, the AU LOSTies never travelled through time, but the OU LOSTies travelled back to before the AU was created when the timelines were one. This is essentially the plot to Back to the Future Part 2, the only difference is that once the timelines diverged, the travelling LOSTies went to their original timeline instead of Marty travelling to an alternate reality that Biff created.
In the OU Jughead didn't go off. Dharma came back to a magnetic mess with the radiation of the bomb, poured concrete, and THAT is what caused the buildup.
In the AU, Jughead did go off. The explosion underground caused the Island to break free from the underwater volcano and slide into the ocean. Time continued on from there. So, who detonated Jughead in the AU? Juliet from a different reality.
Chang didn't LOSE his arm. He injured it. He doesn't have a prosthetic arm in the Swan video. He has a limp arm. A prosthetic arm would be bent at the elbow.
All of those examples: Sayid shooting Ben, Juliet delivering Ethan, Daniel telling Charlotte to leave; All of that happened. It just wasn't the AU LOSTies that did it in the AU timeline. It was the OU LOSTies from an alternate future.

[DENNYKIRK]

Actually, there is a scene where Sawyer is in his "alt" apartment and he turns on the television and a scene from the old series "LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE" comes on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAv_9...eature=related

I believe if you really pay attention that this scene basically lets you know they ARE all dead.

[mastyrwerk]

Originally Posted by DENNYKIRK

Actually, there is a scene where Sawyer is in his "alt" apartment and he turns on the television and a scene from the old series "LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE" comes on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAv_9...eature=related

I believe if you really pay attention that this scene basically lets you know they ARE all dead.

Really? Cause I watched Little House, and I'm not dead.

I think that scene had more to do with letting us know that Ford's parents were dead, and him watching Little House was showing how he was coping with it even to this day.

[DENNYKIRK]

Originally Posted by mastyrwerk

Really?
I think that scene had more to do with letting us know that Ford's parents were dead, and him watching Little House was showing how he was coping with it even to this day.

Yes, you are correct about that part, but...it ALSO lets the viewer know that they are all dead, waiting to be reunited with those who they most loved & shared that special island bond with, IMO.

[mastyrwerk]

Originally Posted by DENNYKIRK

Yes, you are correct about that part, but...it ALSO lets the viewer know that they are all dead, waiting to be reunited with those who they most loved & shared that special island bond with, IMO.

That is definitely your opinion, as in that what's playing on a television in the background of a scene where the character is morning the death of his parents is not proof of anything, especially not that he is dead or that everyone is dead in a made up world that only shows episodes of Little House that talks about being dead.

The show on the tube is setting the tone of the scene, not trying to explain to him what's going on.